The Perk, Sunday Late Morning

[not_in_the_book]

Ronan held the door open for Anemone as they entered the Perk, smiling warmly. "So," he said, "tea and debate. I do believe that tea is the first order of business; what would you like?"


[OOC: Thread with Anemone locked to them, otherwise open for regular Perkly business!]

Comments

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

Anemone smiled at Ronan as she glanced around the shop. Teeeeeeeeeeeea. "Is there anything the gentleman recommends? I'm partial to Tamaryokucha or Jasmine, but I'm open to suggestions."

[not_in_the_book]

"Jasmine is always good, but do you have much experience with herbal tisanes?" Ronan asked, smiling. "They vary greatly, so you can find something to match pretty much any taste. I'm particularly fond of licorice teas, myself."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"Tisane? No, I've never tried one. I don't think we have those at home. I didn't know they even made a licorice tea!" Anemone studied her options thoughtfully. "Most of what we have available are similar to the Japanese teas available on this world." She grinned over at her ethics date. "I'll try the Orange Peel (http://teasource.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=9021&Category_Code=Tisane&Product_Count=20) one, that sounds nice and yummy."

[not_in_the_book]

Ronan nodded, and ordered that for her and a cup of Licorice Spice for himself. "Shall we find a seat, then?" he asked.

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"Indeed." Anemone gallantly offered her arm to Ronan, giggling. "May I escort you to your table?" she gestured to all the open tables. "The kingdom is ours!"

[not_in_the_book]

Ronan took the offered arm, laughing as well. "Why, thank you! Much obliged!"

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

Still giggling, she walked over to a table near one of the windows. "Sir, your seat awaits. Now, what ethical dilemma did we want to start with today? Back to ends verses means, since we didn't get much time to cover it in class? Or one of our more recent encounters?"

[not_in_the_book]

"Why don't we start with ends versus means," Ronan said, taking a seat, "and then see where we go from there?"

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

Anemone nodded as she slid into her seat. "Okay. You had mentioned at Caritas that you had an oath of some kind to defend life. Is that part of being a wizard, or just a personal choice? I'm curious to understand how to affects your choice to elevate means above ends. Does it actually include all life, or all life that's on your side?"

[not_in_the_book]

"It is part of wizardry," Ronan said, "and it's certainly not as simple as 'our side/their side'." He frowned. "There are certainly situations where wizards are forced to take individual lives in order that the universe as a whole continue on, situations that I, myself, have been forced into... Others where we face not life, but a parody of life, twisted beyond Life's purpose. We would see those more often," he continued, "than having to face down other living creatures."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"So these alien invasions I've heard about," she sipped her tea thoughtfully, "if they were using a human as a conduit to stay on this plane of life, would you be able to eliminate the connection, or does that violate the oath? Does it make a difference if it is a person or a puppy? I'm not trying to be rude, just to understand."

"To place it in context, I've killed several thousand Anti-body Coralians that were attacking Towers, which are our version of cities. They killed everything in their path. They were just defending the Command Cluster, but were attacking civilian targets rather than the military, because they were closer. If I were a wizard, would I have been unable to defend the Towers?"

[not_in_the_book]

"Eliminating the conduit certainly wouldn't be the first solution," Ronan said. "We would be responsible for finding any possible solution to remove the connection itself and save the person. And no, realistically, it wouldn't matter if it were a puppy, or any other kind of animal; we couldn't just eliminate them to save everyone else, there's always another solution.

"As to these... Anti-body Coralians? I'm not certain I understand exactly what they are." Ronan considered the situation carefully. "I don't know how perfectly they translate to my own world, but certainly we could defend cities. The Towers, in this case. The closest analogue... Perhaps, are they related somehow to some form of construct? The Lone Power -- the Power that created death and entropy -- has been known to create constructs, things that mimic life but only serve its purposes. While wanton destruction is not the aim of any wizard, certainly we'd be able to stop those however we are required. And certainly a wizard can defend him or herself, as well."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"If every moment the connection is open, however, aren't you morally responsible for every person that comes to harm? I'm not saying shoot on sight, but perhaps whacking over the head wouldn't be remiss to start with?" Anemone grinned impishly. "If that fails, then consider which end the connection can be severed at the quickest."

"Coralians are sentient, alive, and more importantly, they aren't normally hostile. When the Scub Coral, the brain, is attacked, it automatically creates Anti-bodies for defense, and they function like anti-bodies in humans. In this case, the military was trying to stir them up for political reasons. The Coralians then responded by attacking the Towers. I was sent in to destroy all the Anti-bodies and make it look like the military defended the Towers from a threat. The threat was real, people were dying, but it was started by the military. I knew the Anti-bodies were attacking because of the Colonel's actions, and I killed them all anyway."

"Although this Lone Power of yours sounds like he'd get along great with the Colonel. Dewey only mimicked life, I don't think he ever actually lived it."

[not_in_the_book]

Ronan shrugged. "Certainly, if rendering the person unconscious will give us time to find another solution? I'm all for that, especially as I could heal any damage that was done.

"That situation..." Ronan frowned. "That's not something we'd face. I can see... I understand how militaries work, how you have to follow orders from your superiors, but I truly don't like it. If someone is attacking us, as a threat that we wizards would have to deal with, it's something honestly hostile, and even then..." He shrugged, partly in an effort to stave off thinking of old battles. "There are destructive wizardries for a reason, because there are times when you have to use them. But they're never a first resort, and never, ever, as a true offensive."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"Hence why you use Means above Ends? You need to take into account the whys and wherefores of an attack before you know which, um, wizardies? wizardries? are an appropriate response? Does it matter then what your potential end-result is, or are there some steps you can not take?"

"Wait, you can heal?" Anemone's eyes grew large as she clapped excitedly. "Cool! I wish I could do that! Do you have to balance the boom-type magic with the healing stuff, like karma, or is it just neutral?"

[not_in_the_book]

Ronan shook his head. "It's not really that simple, either," he said. "It's..." He stopped to consider his next words. "Basically," he said, "I spoke, in class, with a mass generality brought on by extreme emotion: I feel that the only acceptable sacrifice is oneself. But reality, as always, is more complex, and there are shades in every situation. So... I guess the best way is to say that, yes, as a wizard, my oath allows me to harm others as needed to prevent or slow the spread of entropy, but only with so much force as is needed to effect that slowing or prevention.

"And, yeah, I can heal," he added. "I work at the clinics on Wednesday nights. And it doesn't really work that way; it's just... different types of wizardry. Different people have different specialties."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"So if someone had an end goal of, um, stopping war or cleansing the world of sin, why would you consider the means at all? Isn't the overall good of such an aspiration worth the cost involved? If you can save an entire future from pain and suffering, isn't that worth a life or two? Or a thousand?" Anemone sipped her tea as she regarded Ronan. "Is it our place to place a value on individual life and happiness, instead of serving the majority?"

[not_in_the_book]

"But can we afford to lose sight of that individual life and happiness?" Ronan returned. "Certainly, one can argue that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few, but, for example, a government has a responsibility to all of its citizens, not just the majority. They must examine all needs. For someone like a wizard... I'm not a government, I'm not an expert, I can only judge where I've experienced. And my experience tells me that you can't afford to lose either the big picture or the individuals, even if it means they both get a little fuzzy."

[death-of-hope.livejournal.com]

"Can anyone ever claim to be an expert with a situation like that? You have to go with what you feel, in your deepest heart of hearts. Can a decision ever be actually immoral or unethical if it's what that person seriously, honestly believes is the right thing to do? If we have to take into account people who disagree, is there ever such thing as an actual ethical action?" Anemone waved her hand expressively. "I make decisions based on the people around me. If protecting what's mine results in pain and suffering for another person but protects those I love, I don't feel I'm being unethical. I think that failing the people I'm pledged to protect would be the unethical action."